Christopher, me referring to the past...that's a stretch. From posts you made on wrenches...

----
Marco wrote:
Is there any reason to think that the grid-tied Outback--whenever it's
ready for that application--will not go through the bugs and burn-in
period that every other grid-tied inverter has gone through? This
inverter does come from former Xantrex engineers who were closely
involved with the grid-tied SWs, right? While I'm NOT on Beacon Power's
payroll, I do believe that the M5 will certainly be an improvement over
the MM3/5 and will benefit from the travails of the MMs under AEI.

CF wrote:
Hey Marco - you should probably stick with discussing subjects you know
more fully...

Greg Thomas and Robin Gudgel where Xantrex employees for about two
months - then I (their former boss) was forced to fire them. I then
went part time (I needed the medical coverage) and relieved myself from
all management responsibilities. The problems Xantrex had with the SW
and UL did not occur until well after I fired Greg/Robin and I had left.
None of us here at OutBack consider ourselves to have been Xantrex
employees voluntarily.

marco mangelsdorf wrote:
Was there some type of slave-labor system going on in Arlington back
then that I haven't heard about?

CF wrote:
Yes there was - between Greg, Robin and myself we invested over a half
million dollars into Trace of our own cash (and this was real cash not
stock options or other b*llsh*t) years previously only to have our
company "acquired" in a "merger" and then go in a direction we disagreed
with. Xantrex still to this day has refused to cash us out. I also had
to watch my 25 employees struggle with the changes and challenges
imposed by the new management.

------
As I said, it's a little late to take the high road now.

(CF) You keep referring to the past - why not talk in specifics about real issues you are addressing now instead of just pointing the finger at me and OutBack as being to cause for Xantrex's problems? I only responded to your specific statements about me and my company here.

I already dealt with the issue (in great detail) of how to get service from Xantrex. I am not pointing the finger or laying blame. No reason to be defensive here...I never called you or Outback out in my post. It was you who decided to weigh into a Xantrex discussion topic.

See u in the market.

Lloyd

Gentlemen and I use this term loosely...

I really want Xantrex and Outback to be active participants in the solar-guppy forum.

I have never censored anyone for making a posting , at worst I have made my feelings know and asked to stick to helping the users , who have no clue as to why and what this mud slinging is about , this is getting to personal guys and I will start deleting posts or content that is just personal attacks .. Neither of you are winning points on this

Lloyd, to help Xantrex, can you have a senior technical support type be assigned to check in on this site. It would help folks allot and offer direct technical support. Tobin did this briefly; it would be nice to make a permanent and official thing of this.

Chris, boB ... et all;

You have a very faithful following, I don't agree with Lloyds view re: not responding to users who have questions. You know the SW series like I know the Suntie. We provide the type of support that makes users feel comfortable with what was already a hard decision, which is to invest in RE in the first place. I really and I mean this sincerely, want you views and support on an active level. I hope this will encourage you to help and you DONT have to keep to Outback forum, I am sure you have insight into the SW being part of the team that developed it.

Gup:
NO manufactures monitors this site, SMA, Xantrex and Outback did initially, they now all have there own BBS and NONE of them have posted here in over a year.

DJ: Well, glad I can be a catalyst for change . I've often told people that I don't personally *get* migraine headaches: I'm a carrier .

Lloyd:
Your two dealers that say they have had trouble getting us to do warranty work is very strange.

DJ:

Two dealers, we'll call one of them "Peter" and the other one "Irwin". Both use Matrix as a middleman for Xantrex stuff. Both have had the usual amount of warranty and returns over the years, but in the last few years, although Matrix would take the stuff back happily "for exchange/replacement" it would take MANY MONTHS, with CONSTANT calling, to get action. Meanwhile, customers are inconvenienced, sometimes seriously. There's a fair bit of true off-grid people up here. Is it Xantrex or Matrix that is the problem? Matrix blames Xantrex.
My personal inverter. Gets wet, dies (which is why I look covetously at an FX . I call one of the nearest Xantrex authorized repair depots. I won't say which one, but when I ask to get it fixed, I get told "Well, we can fix it, but only if the parts are on the shelf. If they aren't, we've had a lot of problem getting parts from Xantrex." I ship the inverter to them. They call Xantrex. Xantrex says "You're on your own, sorry." I kick up a little dust in alt.homepower, and magically, a Xantrex guy offers specs and a link to a US parts distributer. WHICH I RELAY TO THEIR DEPOT because Xantrex hadn't.

Lloyd:
"Before it was Xantrex, you could still call an engineer..."
I've heard that one before. We do have engineers here…with phone extensions and email addresses. We employ more engineers than anyone else in our industry. I will also add that we don't have only "self proclaimed" engineers…these are folks with real training and discipline. Who do you want to talk to? What is the topic? This sounds like the Outback smokescreen pitch…"talk to a live engineer".

DJ:
Actually, I was hearing this LONG before I ever *heard* of OutBack. My old mentor, "Peter", often lamented that he could no longer "talk to an engineer" to solve problems, leaving messages, getting no reply. Now, granted, "Peter" is an old hippie, and not net-savy. But if an old goat like him could see the difference, it was there.

Lloyd:
"talk to a live engineer". This is easy when you are really small and don't have many fielded products. At some sales level you have to invest in a real customer service infrastructure.

DJ: Actually, had a problem with a Thermo-Finnigan product yesterday (I still do some equipment management contracts for some hi-tech companies). YES_TER_DAY. And Thermo, by the way, makes Xantrex look like a lemonade stand in it's scope, no offence (http://www.thermo.com).
This morning, I had two phone calls and an email from a Thermo engineer, dying to help me. Size doesn't mean jack, don't think that it does. Oh, and this was about support for a TWENTY YEAR OLD gas chromatograph-mass spectrophotometer. They seemingly think their clients have long memories, and remember support when purchase time comes around. I, myself, have disqualified manufacturers in million dollar instruments when I've called their other customers, and heard less-than-flattering things about after-market service. I weild a terrible sword .

Lloyd:
DJ, you do realize that Xantrex's head office is based in Canada? In fact I am Canadian. Go Flames...Go! I'm sorry I can't agree with your comment. We are not a garage shop, we are CDN based real company. If you are in Vancouver some time, feel free to visit.

DJ:
Dude. I'm based in QUEBEC, not Canada . But seriously. It could well be that it's your distributor chain out here. Could be. That still makes it your problem, though. And should I ever have the misfortune to have to leave Quebec and head to the Soggy Coast, I may well drop by .

Lloyd:
As I said from the outset...we are not perfect, but we absolutely care and have invested alot of $ in customer service staffing. I know it's fashionable to trash Xantrex and romanticize the past Trace organization. But let's stick to facts and get over the fact that Trace was acquired over 4 years ago. It's time to move on.

DJ:
See, here's the thing. I don't have ANY experience with Trace. Four years ago, I wasn't "in" this industry. I was working alternative energy biotech. Doing some pilot work for Amoco R&D, some gov't contracts in prototypes. I have no romantic memories of Trace. I just hear alot of not-impressive stuff about Xantrex in the here-and-now.

Lloyd:
I will also add that we don't have only "self proclaimed" engineers…these are folks with real training and discipline.

DJ:
As I said, my base is in industrial maintenance and installation, licenced and certified in both. And to clarify that, you become a millwright by usually taking a four year college course in something usually called "electromechanical engineering technology", then a four year apprenticeship which has to cover all 23 diciplines of my trade, THEN take a journeyman's exam. So while I can admire an actual "engineer", I don't bow to them: they take the easy road .

Gup:
Either you name names or stop with this non-sense. I'm not gonna have this web-site turn into a pissing match of third party hear-say

DJ:
As I said, I don't want them to get into trouble with their suppliers. And I'm not vindictive. I freely admit and congratulate Xantrex/Trace for the quality of their products. My problem is that the support I've HEARD about from my mentors in this business has been far less than desirable. No, I don't have any personal story besides my one burned inverter. But, to be flippant, "Once burned, twice shy."

Gup:
from my view both Xantrex and Outback have proven they will be there to help there customers ... Any company can always do better, neither can make the claim (or do) that they can't do better

DJ:
My problem is that out here in the hinterland of RE, there *is* substantial room for improvement.

Gup:
I really want Xantrex and Outback to be active participants in the solar-guppy forum.

DJ:
Damn right. Like I said in a previous post, I really appreciate seeing them in "no man's land", not just on their own boards, and applaud Chris, boB, and Lloyd for doing so. And should any of you end up in the National Capital Region of Canada, I'll make sure you get a REAL beer (especially you, Lloyd, because you're probably drinking that Labatt's crap .

DJ

Gup, readers and Llyod,

This will be my last post on this subject - I agree that there is no value in continuing this. I only entered into the discussion once Lloyd made a comment specifically referring to myself and my company in his 3rd posting in this subject as follows which was PRIOR to any of my comments:

"I will also add that we don't have only "self proclaimed" engineers… sounds like the Outback smokescreen pitch…"

So Lloyd - I am calling you out on your statements - It seems like you really enjoy this type of crap - I certainly don't as there are much more important things for me to focus on which actually helps the PV industry develop and succeed...

"I am not pointing the finger or laying blame. No reason to be defensive here...I never called you or Outback out in my post. It was you who decided to weigh into a Xantrex discussion topic."

This statement is simply not true - be a man and admit it, Lloyd.

Christopher

Hello everyone,

I am new to this forum and the RE industry. Before I ordered my components, I contacted the customer service areas of all these manufacturers and received excellent support. I quess I have these questions which should solve all problems immediately...

1. If I purchase a product manufactured by any of the above mentioned companies which has a specified warranty, does should it matter which dealer I purchased it from if the unit fails to work?

2. If I have a problem with my system in or out warranty, do I have the option to contact the manufacturer directly and send it back to the factory for service?

3. If the local dealer does not give the support the customer needs, will the factory offer support when the customer asks for it?

Yes, absolutely.

We always encourage folks to work with their installer, since product issues are often system issues that need to be diagnosed by someone familiar with the installation. Having said that...our warranty is
to the end user. We provide support to both end users and installers. At your option and discretion we will support you directly (pre and post sales support).

We also have a Xantrex Certified Dealer program. If you choose to work with a Certified Dealer you can be sure that the installer has the necessary experience to do the work.

http://www.xantrex.com/cd/default.asp

There are also many other high quality installers who haven't joined our program yet. Outside of selecting a Certified Dealer make sure you ask for references.

Regards,

Lloyd

DJ, coming back to the whole point you started this topic. Let me ask you something....did the support options I provided help? Just to review;

--------------------
To obtain support there are multiple options:

Toll Free:
1-800-670-0707
1-800-446-6180

Email: customerservice@xantrex.com

Forum: www.xantrex.com/forum
* The forum is band new, but we watch it and will respond.

--------------------

Just curious.

Lloyd

Is this the you bought on ebay and is 10 years old ?

Exactly, even the best companies in any industry have issues and folks that will say negative things about them. In North America, Xantrex has the highest quantity of fielded inverter (and related BOS) products to support. As such, we require a significant customer service infrastructure. This is purely to do with quantity, not quality as some may suggest. Practically speaking...EVERYTHING will break one day and will require support. There is no question we have made mistakes, failed to respond to some folks etc. I have seen and heard negative feedback. I have also seen alot of kudos for the support we provide. I must say, I dislike it when people generalize.

Thanks.

Lloyd

Loyd i have a sw plus 2524 installed in a off grid application and have a problem. Actually the problem is fixed but i would like your support techs to tell me how to fix it? the problem is this when the c35 gets to the bulk setting of 29.2 recommended by your book. and starts dropping the amperage during the absorption stage the sw plus will keep coming in and out of search mode like it is sensing a ac load. sometimes staying on for seconds sometimes minutes up to like 5 minutes then back to search then on off so on so fourth. and will continue doing this through the float stage till sun goes down. now i emailed your support for weeks and they finally told me this" the c series charge controller is kinda wierd and causes some wierd problems" and they then recomended just to not worry about it seings the sun is out if the inverter isnt searching you arent really wasting power. well turns out one day we where talking to outback about a remote start generator and guess what my problem is solved??? 5 minutes with outback 3 weeks with xantrex go figure. but i still want a xantrex engineer to tell me the problem lets make shure outback was right. dont get me wrong i love the trace/xantrex products we use the dr series almost daily in camp installs. and have very good luck with sw series stuff and use usually 2 t240's in each system one one well pump and one on generator to balance the generator. have the engineer email me if he needs more info please.
michellenryan@yahoo.com