This may be old news for some of us, but I just found these articles online and figure that many others may find them helpful.

I found the site that is hosting Code Corner Articles by John Wiles that have been published in Home Power Magazine. It is on the Southwest Technology Development Institute website (hosted by New Mexico State University).

Not sure if all the Code Corner articles are there, but they do go back to December '95. Really cool articles & great stuff to keep in mind about NEC considerations for PV systems (and I know there are some inspectors out there that could use the site for a good review of PV code practices... just not sure how to get them to go there!)

-Roger [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

I am sick of regulations

I understand the regulation on interface and Xantrex has that covered, thanks, but get off my back on where and how I generate the power going in to my inverter. What business is it of an inspector how I get my power, solar, water turbine, wind mill, stationary bicycle, or how I wire it TO the inverter. How many wind turbines have UL stamps? Why should a solar panel have a UL stamp. I buy used panels which do not have stamps any more, thats my business. I put up a wind turbine no stamp thats my business. As long as I have a good interface that wont fry the utility man, that is all I should be inspected for.

I built my own solar racks, wired it all up and got it going gorilla style, get off my back with the code crap.

Guerilla power forever

I fully agree with the get off my back bit, but you have to keep in mind if your house burns down and you are not in code (which the firemen will find), you will be paying for a pile of ashes where your house was for the next 20 to 30 years. I think I would just play it safe myself. It really don't cost anymore to do it right and get it over with. If you are not grounded and using fuses and breakers, Well that would be just dumb. As far as solar panels being UL listed ain't they all?

I myself like the idea of UL listed and inspectors, because if it were not for them what kind of junk do you think they would be selling to you? I would be afraid to sleep in a house for fear of it burning down for poor workmanship. Or just the thought if my kids burning up in it. Is it not worth the few extra dollars to save your family's life? What about that Grid worker that got fried because of a junk inverter that is UL listed but the home owner jerryrigged it to keep it going?

I'll stay out of your house.

i was going to let this go by, but i decided to chime in my 2 cents anyway. both arguements have merit. it is true that we would be deluged with unsafe poorly made products without guidelines to follow. now i have to say the nec, or is that ul, is going overboard with this stuff like in pv frame grounding. they say it is only to be grounded on the preapproved grounding point on the frame. all i have to say is that if you were to drill a hole for another ground point even 2 feet away from the approved one that if that resistance would be that bad between those 2 points that it shouldn't have passed ul or nec or any other thing as the frame is unsafe and shoddy. it is after all the whole frame that is getting grounded and not just a pinpoint on that part of the framing. they are starting to get rediculous in some ways and are needlessly overprotecting in being that specific at times. don't use any other screw or washer for this connection when other companies make screws and washers that would work just fine even though they are the same metals and size, but just weren't inspected by inspecter gadget so you aren't allowed. now i can see limiting the general specs of screws or washers like being carefull in cases of dissimilar metals as to prevent premature failures caused by different physical properties and by possible galvanic reaction failures. as a noted tv personnality always says, "give me a break."

That is a good point niel, about the ground screw and many others such as battery cable types and brands and even the type and brand of crimping tools. The nit picking is a little over board. However, May as well just give in because you can't win. Everyone wants their cut and it is fixed so they will get it and, one way or the other you will pay. Fines, burning home or buy what they tell you to.. You will pay.

Damn, I sound all doomsday.

arkiejon,

You miss my point, there are other ways to generate electricity and they are not all UL/anyone approved. My solar array is 100 feet from my house in the pasture, it ain't going to start my house on fire. Are batteries approved by any one. I agree to use an approved interface to protect the lineman and the grid, I like Xantrex because it even has the built in lightning arrestor. I have fused and grounded diconnects too. Close by I am working on my small windmill experiments and farm. I have had some say I can not hook my windmills to the grid because they are not approved. BULL

UL etc. serve a purpose but get real. If this is allowed to go on they will come to my off the grid cabin in the woods and say the wire from my 12 volt panel (bought from a Chinese source non UL and cheep) charging my 12 volt battery (non UL deep cycle form Wall-Mart) feeding my inverter (Non UL Nakota from Pep Boys) is dangerous. They will say I am a danger to myself and shut me down and put me in the dark, back to the stone age. I'll just start a fire on the floor of my cabin, OH! that fire is not approved either. Come to think of it I do not have a UL stamp on my #@! thus I am an accident waiting to happen.

Gorilla Power

I built a windmill once. Cost as much if I had just bought a brand name to start with. I myself will do about anything I think I can get away with. I don't see anything wrong with smoking pot, but it is not legal so I don't do it.

What it comes down to, Is if you can afford to pay the fines and or jail time you can afford and have the time to do the job right. With that said if you want to go gorilla so be it. But braging about it will only let an inspector in your area know you are there and he will be very happy to come out and see you to get in his monthly quota. I'm sure he or she will be happy to brag to their co-workers on how they put you in your place.

If you want to make a statement againce the NEC you should first of all get legal, then get a lawyer and start writting letters to everyone an their brother to get the parts you don't like changed. I'm sure there are lots of people who would like to see these codes changed and I feel sure xantrex and all the big boys have been trying for years with lots of money to back them.

I wish you good luck in your quest. But do you really think you are going about it correctly?

Remember, UL is Underwriter's Laboratories--It grew out of insurance companies looking to reduce their losses.



They have no authority to place anyone in jail. And, if you don't like UL, there are other companies that do it cheaper--and will not have the understanding of what they are approving--so they are easier to get marks from.

Generally, UL (CSA, ETL, etc.) is useful to companies because it is a good start for a defense in a product liability case. If you follow their rules and procedures, then you followed best industry practices and it will be very hard for somebody to win a judgement against you...

The other place where UL is enforced is through building codes, fire codes, and local cities who write NRTL requirements into their laws and ordinances.

When I worked on DC equipment a couple decades ago, the UL requirements were sometimes silly or even in direct conflict with other requirements (like Bellcore--the Telephone Company's own internal requirements organization).

In the end, if your cabin burns down and you want to collect on the insurance and the company finds that you did not follow code requirements, then they probably will not pay off on the claim.

If a fireman or child is killed in a forest fire started by your cabin--I am sure that somebody will attempt to hold you legally responsible for all of the damage and death from that fire.

Part of UL that most people don't see (and may not understand) is their practise of traceability and inter-compatibility... If I buy wire that has UL marks on it--I don't have to go any further back in the supply chain to prove that I used wire that had good insulation. There were a few times when I had to use (or was going to use--don't remember now) something that did not have traceability. It was (going to be?) a big pain in the butt to prove that the part was good every time a UL inspector came by the factory because I would have to prove that every lot had the right materials in it.

Anyway, getting NRTL compliance is a pain, maintaining NRTL is a pain, working with NRTL inspectors is a pain, losing a lawsuit can put me out of business or stop production of a product. Overall, safety has been dramatically improved on products used here in the US.

If you don't believe so, look at some of the non-NRTL listed products that you can sometimes buy in flea markets from overseas and look at how many ways they can fail (I had purchased a variac for our test bench--from a reputable electronics supply company--the variac failed three different ways in the two months that I used it--I had to keep fixing it and re-engineer parts of it to prevent shock/fire).

-Bill

BB

I want to stop being a heavy on UL they are only one of many regulating agencies involved in this issue, so I will use the term "board" subsequently.
I am sensitive to the regulation requirements, and want those that protect, grid tie interface, but not on source of power. I have seen a couple responses to my statements and they point to regulation as the only way to be assured of safety, but no one has addressed how to deal with un-regulated components other than costly certification. I gave the example of the batteries not being board regulated. As you say if my cabin starts a fire I can not sue the battery manufacture on regulation basis. The fire occurred all the same, not because of regulated wire or solar panels. So my point is accidents will happen that will be my fault, regulations or not. Regulations will reduce the likely hood of that, good. Is it possible to be 100% safe, some would say so but at what cost. Have you heard of cases of personal solar systems starting fires? I would like to install a water wheel any ideas how to get that past the local inspectors?

mrasmussen,
i think in reviewing all of the said arguments i have to agree with you. the generating source being ul is very stupid. take for example a generator one might buy to incorporate it into a wind generator. guess what? that voids the ul rating because it wasn't tested under those conditions. very stupid. pvs being ul approved have no place because as you said no fires occurred by pvs. having ul approved pvs means what? even with approval they can start a fire as in a series string going through ul approved wires and finally going into a bad connection that was ul approved also. any voltage potential can start a fire including batteries be they ul stamped or not.
yes, the grid connects should be ul approved so we are in agreement there too, but the rest is pointless. hmm. i'm wondering if there are any ul approved ipods out there. they might catch fire without this approval. haha
even as i pointed out the nec can be rediculous at times too, but not as much as ul tends to be. now i didn't look, but i don't know if the nec requires ul approvals for anything or not. anybody know of this offhand?