Since Lloyd made some specific statements about me and my company I am replying to them in the Xantrex section of this forum (where I usually would not post anything) - Christopher Freitas, OutBack Power Systems

>>> Lloyd of Xantrex stated:

"Let me first start by giving you some facts. We have a total of 15 Call Center and Tech Support Reps ready to serve our dealers and consumers. Nobody in our industry has this level of support."

(CF) This is because nobody else in the industry needs this many people to support their products

>>> Lloyd of Xantrex stated:

"We do have engineers here…with phone extensions and email addresses. We employ more engineers than anyone else in our industry."

(CF) Try to get the direct extension or email address for any Xantrex Engineer - and then try and get any response from them...

(CF) SMA has many times the number of engineers that Xantrex has Lloyd - you should be more careful with what you say...

>>> Lloyd of Xantrex stated:

"I will also add that we don't have only "self proclaimed" engineers…these are folks with real training and discipline. Who do you want to talk to? What is the topic? This sounds like the Outback smokescreen pitch…"talk to a live engineer".

(CF) There is no OutBack "smokescreen" - here at OutBack you can reach REAL live engineers - both with degrees and without - but who don't hide behind a switchboard operator or marketing department. Sure - I myself don't have an engineering degree - but no engineering programs were offered in solar electricity when I went to college... At OutBack we also prefer people with experience over a diploma...

>>> Lloyd of Xantrex stated:

"This is easy when you are really small and don't have many fielded products. At some sales level you have to invest in a real customer service infrastructure."

(CF) If you build a high quality reliable product which does what it suppose to do then the number of people required to support it is less.

(CF) OutBack has already pro actively invested tens of thousands of dollars in training (before we even shipped our first inverter), in videos (both marketing and technical) and in a on line forum which has been up for almost three years now...

(CF) Also Lloyd - I am really tired of answering questions for dealers/friends about Xantrex products because they couldn't get someone at Xantrex who knew anything about their problem.... If you want specific questions and people - Let me know and I will provide examples of them here...

>>> Lloyd of Xantrex stated:

"Just so you know, I have been in the industry over 11 years...worked at Statpower, then Trace, then Xantrex. I know the truth about Trace, the engineers that worked for that organization, and the massive cleanup we have had to do after the acquisition. One of my first jobs after Xantrex acquired us was to fix Arlington Customer Service and Tech Support."

(CF) As you said - you worked at Trace before Xantrex (and after) - but your suggesting somehow you were not in-part responsible for the problems that occurred? Or those that are still occurring?

>>> Lloyd of Xantrex stated:

"The most common complaint from tech services was that the Trace engineers shipped products that weren't finished and they were left holding the bag with disappointed/angry customers."

(CF) The engineerings at Trace never shipped any products themselves - all of the decisions to release any new product / beta test / prototype was done by the management of Trace or Xantrex with marketing's approval (and usually it was marketing who was demanding the release).

>>> Lloyd of Xantrex stated:

"My second clean up job was running two major customer service programs to fix the SW UL delisting and the SunTie issues. Both of these issues were Trace issues acquired by Xantrex. "

(CF) Both of these problems occurred after the merger of Xantrex and Trace. There was not a single SunTie shipped before the merger (other than some prototype SFG units which went to SMUD's program in Sacramento). The de-listing of the SW had also occurred well after the merger and AFTER Xantrex had "laid off" the two engineers who designed the SW originally.

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I am not going to say that OutBack is perfect. There are many things we are working on to improve our service, support and products here at OutBack. What I can say is that we get lots of positive comments and have numerous appreciative customers of OutBack products and our sales are growing monthly as fast as we can manage.

I also think that blaming other people for one's own problems never solves anything and most people can see through it to the real causes...

Christopher Freitas

Either you name names or stop with this non-sense. I'm not gonna have this web-site turn into a pissing match of third party hear-say

If someone has an issue , fine , lets discuss the details and make it better ... thats what this site is for , to help us , the end users.

Post YOUR problem , lets see who helps ... OK ?

Welcome back boB and Chris ... it's be almost a year since Outback posted to this site ... I hope both of you can check in and reply as you see fit more often!!


People who are looking buy RE products don't give hoot about the history of who did what or who was to blame in the Trace meltdown. What they want is well designed, built and supported products.

From my view both Xantrex and Outback have proven they will be there to help there customers ... Any company can always do better, neither can make the claim (or do) that they can't do better

I am a believer that the buck stops with ME ... I don't blame problems with others... I gather the information and then hunt down someone who will listen. I have had many communications with SMA, Outback and Xantrex ... they all want to do a good job ... lets HELP them do that

Christopher...long time no speak. I hope all is well with you. We should chat sometime.

On to business...it's a little late to be taking the high road now...don't you think? I have watched you write countless, extremely negative statements about Xantrex over the last few years. IMO...largely revisionist history commentary with little value.

I could easily argue each and every one of your points, but I won't out of respect for Henry and what he is trying to achieve with his site.

I will say one thing though...if you don't like answering questions about Xantrex products, then don't. I have seen you post many answers, for example, about the SW on Wrenches before Mark has time to check the forum. You are doing this not be helpful, but only to promote yourself. Most people see through this.

Enough said, take care.

And...back to the originator of this topic. It's nice that Christopher joined the thread, but I am still looking for a real question.

Thanks.

Lloyd

Lloyd of Xantrex stated:

"it's a little late to be taking the high road now...don't you think? I have watched you write countless, extremely negative statements about Xantrex over the last few years. IMO...largely revisionist history commentary with little value. "

(CF) You keep referring to the past - why not talk in specifics about real issues you are addressing now instead of just pointing the finger at me and OutBack as being to cause for Xantrex's problems? I only responded to your specific statements about me and my company here.

Lloyd of Xantrex stated:

"I could easily argue each and every one of your points, but I won't out of respect for Henry and what he is trying to achieve with his site."

(CF) It was not respectful to Henry or this site to respond as you did previously in your posting - so please stick to real issues and not bring up your old accusations and false claims.

Lloyd of Xantrex stated:

"I will say one thing though...if you don't like answering questions about Xantrex products, then don't. I have seen you post many answers, for example, about the SW on Wrenches before Mark has time to check the forum. You are doing this not be helpful, but only to promote yourself. Most people see through this."

(CF) As a (reluctant) stockholder in Xantrex and a responsible and committed participant in the PV industry - I will help out people whenever I can with any company's product. It is extremely frustrating to listen to people struggle with problems and issues when one can help and when the problems have been previously discovered, investigated and solved but the information not well distributed or the root problem never corrected. For each of the (few) times I have chimed in on the wrenches list there are literally dozens of questions I get on SWs that people could not get help with from Xantrex's "technical" support people.

Here is a excerpt from a SW user inquiry to OutBack I handled today:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To: engineering@outbackpower.com
Subject: power factor correction

I understand that some of or all of your engineers have previously been involved in designing/building trace inverters (I hope this isn't a swear word at Outback)

I have a trace inverter charger SW3024E and I need some advice that I am having trouble getting from Xantrex or anywhere else for that matter.

Do you have any suggestions? (other than installing an outback system)

I feel a bit cheeky asking for your assistance but I have really been having difficulty getting answers. Xantrex response has been to send me a tech note on how to size capacitors to correct bad power factor and Home Power haven't responded at all.
Is this problem too hard?

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This is very typical - if Lloyd wants to follow-up with him (I answered his questions and solved the problem he was having - at least as well as was possible with his 10 year old inverter). I will provide he email address if you would like to verify this - I am only providing this as an example of the real world situation customers are faced with.

Let's just drop this thread and get back to competing in the real market - which is what really matters in my opinion.

Christopher

Christopher, me referring to the past...that's a stretch. From posts you made on wrenches...

----
Marco wrote:
Is there any reason to think that the grid-tied Outback--whenever it's
ready for that application--will not go through the bugs and burn-in
period that every other grid-tied inverter has gone through? This
inverter does come from former Xantrex engineers who were closely
involved with the grid-tied SWs, right? While I'm NOT on Beacon Power's
payroll, I do believe that the M5 will certainly be an improvement over
the MM3/5 and will benefit from the travails of the MMs under AEI.

CF wrote:
Hey Marco - you should probably stick with discussing subjects you know
more fully...

Greg Thomas and Robin Gudgel where Xantrex employees for about two
months - then I (their former boss) was forced to fire them. I then
went part time (I needed the medical coverage) and relieved myself from
all management responsibilities. The problems Xantrex had with the SW
and UL did not occur until well after I fired Greg/Robin and I had left.
None of us here at OutBack consider ourselves to have been Xantrex
employees voluntarily.

marco mangelsdorf wrote:
Was there some type of slave-labor system going on in Arlington back
then that I haven't heard about?

CF wrote:
Yes there was - between Greg, Robin and myself we invested over a half
million dollars into Trace of our own cash (and this was real cash not
stock options or other b*llsh*t) years previously only to have our
company "acquired" in a "merger" and then go in a direction we disagreed
with. Xantrex still to this day has refused to cash us out. I also had
to watch my 25 employees struggle with the changes and challenges
imposed by the new management.

------
As I said, it's a little late to take the high road now.

(CF) You keep referring to the past - why not talk in specifics about real issues you are addressing now instead of just pointing the finger at me and OutBack as being to cause for Xantrex's problems? I only responded to your specific statements about me and my company here.

I already dealt with the issue (in great detail) of how to get service from Xantrex. I am not pointing the finger or laying blame. No reason to be defensive here...I never called you or Outback out in my post. It was you who decided to weigh into a Xantrex discussion topic.

See u in the market.

Lloyd

Gentlemen and I use this term loosely...

I really want Xantrex and Outback to be active participants in the solar-guppy forum.

I have never censored anyone for making a posting , at worst I have made my feelings know and asked to stick to helping the users , who have no clue as to why and what this mud slinging is about , this is getting to personal guys and I will start deleting posts or content that is just personal attacks .. Neither of you are winning points on this

Lloyd, to help Xantrex, can you have a senior technical support type be assigned to check in on this site. It would help folks allot and offer direct technical support. Tobin did this briefly; it would be nice to make a permanent and official thing of this.

Chris, boB ... et all;

You have a very faithful following, I don't agree with Lloyds view re: not responding to users who have questions. You know the SW series like I know the Suntie. We provide the type of support that makes users feel comfortable with what was already a hard decision, which is to invest in RE in the first place. I really and I mean this sincerely, want you views and support on an active level. I hope this will encourage you to help and you DONT have to keep to Outback forum, I am sure you have insight into the SW being part of the team that developed it.

Gup:
NO manufactures monitors this site, SMA, Xantrex and Outback did initially, they now all have there own BBS and NONE of them have posted here in over a year.

DJ: Well, glad I can be a catalyst for change . I've often told people that I don't personally *get* migraine headaches: I'm a carrier .

Lloyd:
Your two dealers that say they have had trouble getting us to do warranty work is very strange.

DJ:

Two dealers, we'll call one of them "Peter" and the other one "Irwin". Both use Matrix as a middleman for Xantrex stuff. Both have had the usual amount of warranty and returns over the years, but in the last few years, although Matrix would take the stuff back happily "for exchange/replacement" it would take MANY MONTHS, with CONSTANT calling, to get action. Meanwhile, customers are inconvenienced, sometimes seriously. There's a fair bit of true off-grid people up here. Is it Xantrex or Matrix that is the problem? Matrix blames Xantrex.
My personal inverter. Gets wet, dies (which is why I look covetously at an FX . I call one of the nearest Xantrex authorized repair depots. I won't say which one, but when I ask to get it fixed, I get told "Well, we can fix it, but only if the parts are on the shelf. If they aren't, we've had a lot of problem getting parts from Xantrex." I ship the inverter to them. They call Xantrex. Xantrex says "You're on your own, sorry." I kick up a little dust in alt.homepower, and magically, a Xantrex guy offers specs and a link to a US parts distributer. WHICH I RELAY TO THEIR DEPOT because Xantrex hadn't.

Lloyd:
"Before it was Xantrex, you could still call an engineer..."
I've heard that one before. We do have engineers here…with phone extensions and email addresses. We employ more engineers than anyone else in our industry. I will also add that we don't have only "self proclaimed" engineers…these are folks with real training and discipline. Who do you want to talk to? What is the topic? This sounds like the Outback smokescreen pitch…"talk to a live engineer".

DJ:
Actually, I was hearing this LONG before I ever *heard* of OutBack. My old mentor, "Peter", often lamented that he could no longer "talk to an engineer" to solve problems, leaving messages, getting no reply. Now, granted, "Peter" is an old hippie, and not net-savy. But if an old goat like him could see the difference, it was there.

Lloyd:
"talk to a live engineer". This is easy when you are really small and don't have many fielded products. At some sales level you have to invest in a real customer service infrastructure.

DJ: Actually, had a problem with a Thermo-Finnigan product yesterday (I still do some equipment management contracts for some hi-tech companies). YES_TER_DAY. And Thermo, by the way, makes Xantrex look like a lemonade stand in it's scope, no offence (http://www.thermo.com).
This morning, I had two phone calls and an email from a Thermo engineer, dying to help me. Size doesn't mean jack, don't think that it does. Oh, and this was about support for a TWENTY YEAR OLD gas chromatograph-mass spectrophotometer. They seemingly think their clients have long memories, and remember support when purchase time comes around. I, myself, have disqualified manufacturers in million dollar instruments when I've called their other customers, and heard less-than-flattering things about after-market service. I weild a terrible sword .

Lloyd:
DJ, you do realize that Xantrex's head office is based in Canada? In fact I am Canadian. Go Flames...Go! I'm sorry I can't agree with your comment. We are not a garage shop, we are CDN based real company. If you are in Vancouver some time, feel free to visit.

DJ:
Dude. I'm based in QUEBEC, not Canada . But seriously. It could well be that it's your distributor chain out here. Could be. That still makes it your problem, though. And should I ever have the misfortune to have to leave Quebec and head to the Soggy Coast, I may well drop by .

Lloyd:
As I said from the outset...we are not perfect, but we absolutely care and have invested alot of $ in customer service staffing. I know it's fashionable to trash Xantrex and romanticize the past Trace organization. But let's stick to facts and get over the fact that Trace was acquired over 4 years ago. It's time to move on.

DJ:
See, here's the thing. I don't have ANY experience with Trace. Four years ago, I wasn't "in" this industry. I was working alternative energy biotech. Doing some pilot work for Amoco R&D, some gov't contracts in prototypes. I have no romantic memories of Trace. I just hear alot of not-impressive stuff about Xantrex in the here-and-now.

Lloyd:
I will also add that we don't have only "self proclaimed" engineers…these are folks with real training and discipline.

DJ:
As I said, my base is in industrial maintenance and installation, licenced and certified in both. And to clarify that, you become a millwright by usually taking a four year college course in something usually called "electromechanical engineering technology", then a four year apprenticeship which has to cover all 23 diciplines of my trade, THEN take a journeyman's exam. So while I can admire an actual "engineer", I don't bow to them: they take the easy road .

Gup:
Either you name names or stop with this non-sense. I'm not gonna have this web-site turn into a pissing match of third party hear-say

DJ:
As I said, I don't want them to get into trouble with their suppliers. And I'm not vindictive. I freely admit and congratulate Xantrex/Trace for the quality of their products. My problem is that the support I've HEARD about from my mentors in this business has been far less than desirable. No, I don't have any personal story besides my one burned inverter. But, to be flippant, "Once burned, twice shy."

Gup:
from my view both Xantrex and Outback have proven they will be there to help there customers ... Any company can always do better, neither can make the claim (or do) that they can't do better

DJ:
My problem is that out here in the hinterland of RE, there *is* substantial room for improvement.

Gup:
I really want Xantrex and Outback to be active participants in the solar-guppy forum.

DJ:
Damn right. Like I said in a previous post, I really appreciate seeing them in "no man's land", not just on their own boards, and applaud Chris, boB, and Lloyd for doing so. And should any of you end up in the National Capital Region of Canada, I'll make sure you get a REAL beer (especially you, Lloyd, because you're probably drinking that Labatt's crap .

DJ

Gup, readers and Llyod,

This will be my last post on this subject - I agree that there is no value in continuing this. I only entered into the discussion once Lloyd made a comment specifically referring to myself and my company in his 3rd posting in this subject as follows which was PRIOR to any of my comments:

"I will also add that we don't have only "self proclaimed" engineers… sounds like the Outback smokescreen pitch…"

So Lloyd - I am calling you out on your statements - It seems like you really enjoy this type of crap - I certainly don't as there are much more important things for me to focus on which actually helps the PV industry develop and succeed...

"I am not pointing the finger or laying blame. No reason to be defensive here...I never called you or Outback out in my post. It was you who decided to weigh into a Xantrex discussion topic."

This statement is simply not true - be a man and admit it, Lloyd.

Christopher

Hello everyone,

I am new to this forum and the RE industry. Before I ordered my components, I contacted the customer service areas of all these manufacturers and received excellent support. I quess I have these questions which should solve all problems immediately...

1. If I purchase a product manufactured by any of the above mentioned companies which has a specified warranty, does should it matter which dealer I purchased it from if the unit fails to work?

2. If I have a problem with my system in or out warranty, do I have the option to contact the manufacturer directly and send it back to the factory for service?

3. If the local dealer does not give the support the customer needs, will the factory offer support when the customer asks for it?